| metaldork (Agricultural) | 8 Mar 12 12:53
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Can anyone please clarify if a perpendicularity call out is controlled by a basic dimension or not? In other words is the tolerance zone centered on a basic dimension?
: \: I% A; v5 s& l' p哪位可以幫忙介紹一下，垂直度要求，是否須與理論尺寸相關聯？或者說，垂直度的公差帶，是否以理論尺寸為中心？1 n% Q7 g4 j8 ]+ @) u6 G3 ~" d
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4 }5 [) b( a- T8 || CheckerHater (Mechanical) | 8 Mar 12 13:03 ! ~$ [/ P6 b. r T/ S& |
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No, it is sufficient by itself. 6 c/ |! i: g0 n' W2 z5 Y
不，垂直度本身已經夠了。
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) U3 j4 o( _( j$ ^5 r- e f: o; mIt MAY be used together with basic dimensions when used to refine the Position.
9 s8 K, t) V y/ T當然，在定義位置的情況下，也可以與理論尺寸聯合使用。
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4 W" ]' \* S- W6 { C7 u8 v+ H9 n% V( f| powerhound (Mechanical) | 8 Mar 12 13:42
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No, the tolerance zone moves with the feature being controlled. 不，公差帶隨著其控制的形體而移動。
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| metaldork (Agricultural) | 8 Mar 12 13:56
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The surface is dimensioned from a parallel surface ...would the perp callout control the dimension and if so should it be basic?
* H* s) y5 @& j( W* r, u平面從互相平行的另一個面來定義尺寸……會要求用垂直度來控制尺寸嗎？若是，尺寸要為理論尺寸嗎？ |
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| CheckerHater (Mechanical) | 8 Mar 12 14:17 % M) }# E+ x! T3 T$ ~ `
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There is a difference between Perpendicularity and Parallelism. 垂直度與平行度，是不一樣的。
4 d% o4 v# F% OEven in case of Parallelism the dimension can be toleranced; the Parallelism will refine the tolerance. 就算是平行度，尺寸也可以標明公差；平行度將進一步限定公差。
& w# E# @ z% v/ h( F5 J0 ~7 fIf I don't understand something, please provide a picture. 如果不太明白，請給圖示意。
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. c8 D, ?- R. T/ l5 C; I7 k, t Belanger (Automotive) | 8 Mar 12 14:35
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First, there is an implied basic dim with perpendicuarity. It is the 90 degree relationship to the datum. That's not the kind you were thinking of, but I feel obligated to mention it. 首先，垂直度有一個默認的基本前提，即：與基準的90度關系。這不是你所想的，但我有義務得先申明一下。
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You ask about locating the perp tolerance zone. That should never happen with basic dims. The perp tolerance zone can float freely within whatever other constraints there might be. 你問的是垂直度公差帶的位置。這與理論尺寸無關。垂直度公差帶的位置，可以在其它約束里自由移動，如果有約束的話。
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IOW, the per tolerance never controls the distance from the parallel surface. There should be something else to do that, such as plus/minus. The perp doesn't get added to that; it must operate within it. 哦，平行平面的距離，不受垂直度控制，而受控于其它因素，比如+/-。垂直度不會擴大它；垂直度必須在此范圍內。
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| dgallup (Automotive) | 8 Mar 12 14:38
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| The surface can be dimensioned from a parallel surface and still have a perpendicularity to a datum that is normal to both surfaces. The dimension will control location and to the extent that the envelope principal applies, form. The perpendicularity must be a refinement of the dimension tolerance, typically half or less. 某個面，可以從與其平行的另一個面來標注尺寸來定義距離，同時，可以標注垂直度（基準與此兩面都垂直）。尺寸，按包容原則來控制位置。垂直度公差，必須小于尺寸公差，通常為尺寸公差的一半或更少。 ----------------------------------------: j E3 A% k1 O. a7 s
! J2 \, c" V; kThe Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.+ p! f8 X i) c0 d' N8 M
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* ` M t! M3 ^" g; b2 ?2 H q| axym (Industrial) | 8 Mar 12 15:09 # w. p& r; T* P& H2 h# h& r) R
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metaldork,2 X! C, @) x, g7 R9 y
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The way I like to look at it is that the Perpendicularity zone can always freely translate - its location is never controlled relative to anything. So the Perpendicularity zone is always completely independent of any linear dimensions (basic or directly toleranced) connected to the considered feature. 我認為，垂直度公差帶，是可以自由移動的——它的位置，不受任何約束。故，垂直度公差帶，總是與被測形體的線性尺寸（理論尺寸或直接標注公差的尺寸）相互獨立的。
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dgallup,
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In the scenario you described, the Perpendicularity doesn't have to be a refinement of anything. The directly toleranced dimension doesn't control the squareness, so the Perpendicularity tolerance doesn't need to refine it. 在你提到的例子里，垂直度不會進一步限定任何其它公差。直接帶公差標注的尺寸，不控制垂直度，故垂直度公差也不會進一步限定它。Evan Janeshewski
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| pmarc (Mechanical) | 8 Mar 12 15:13 1 R/ N* t: a, E; B
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I am with J-P on this, the only basic dimension that applies for perpendicularity is basic 90 degrees to the datum and it is usually not shown on a print due to implied basic 90 deg dimension rule.
; S" R0 Z) }! l5 {) `7 ?) z* `我頂J-P的觀點，垂直度里唯一的理論尺寸，為與基準成90度，且通常因為這是一個默認隱含的前提，所以在圖樣上不必標出。: R" \% r5 A7 g( s7 I
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dgallup,
4 R+ Z- B: r1 i' m6 H1 U) ZYou said: "The perpendicularity must be a refinement of the dimension tolerance, typically half or less.". S* O0 k* J, \; p0 W- _! Q) h
Dgallup同學，你說“垂直度公差，必須小于尺寸公差，通常為尺寸公差的一半或更少。”
2 p R d+ n4 m2 VI would be careful with that. If perpendicularity callout is applied only to one "side" of a dimension, its value can be whatever one can imagine (assuming there is no general angular tolerance shown on the print that would control a relationship of the other "side" of the dimension relative to the datum). , c; w+ j9 G3 V' r6 K# C
我對此有看法。如果垂直度只應用于尺寸公差的單“側”，其公差值，可為任意值（假設在圖樣上，未標明用以控制尺寸公差另一“側”與基準的關系的角度公差）。
, o0 M0 K Y8 j: NThe other story is when there are two perpendicularity callouts applied to both "sides" of the dimension. In that case, my vote is their values can be as big as the dimension tolerance (and not half of it). ! }8 f2 r$ {4 j' \" U2 v/ M
另一種例子是，尺寸兩“側”同時標注了垂直度公差。這樣，我的觀點是：這樣垂直度的公差值，可以與尺寸公差值一樣大（并非其之一半）。 |
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| CheckerHater (Mechanical) | 8 Mar 12 15:57
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Evan,
% }' {1 ~: Y* Y KCould you please clarify: Do you believe that perpendicularity tolerance zone can "freely translate" OUTSIDE of linear dimension /position tolerance zone?3 G$ k4 y6 z- B2 r
您能否解釋一下：您相信垂直度公差帶可以在線性尺寸/位置公差帶之外“自由移動”嗎？ |
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| Belanger (Automotive) | 8 Mar 12 16:39 & t' R: k J5 k
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CH, picture a U-shaped bracket -- sort of like field-goal posts. Now take both vertical posts and bend them 20 degrees to the left. Are they within the size (width) tolerance? Yes. Is the post on the left within its perpendicularity tolerance to the ground? No.
2 t- P0 h( R& p8 J- X1 `0 W樓上的，假設有個U形座，比如一種投籃用的那種架子。現在，把“U”的這兩個豎直桿“l"同時向左邊傾斜20度。那“U”寬度的尺寸還在范圍之內嗎？是的。那左邊直桿與地面的垂直度還符合要求嗎？非也。( v+ ]) _" O+ \# j* p4 @$ ~
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So there is no relationship between the tolerance number for the size across the posts and the tolerance number chosen for the perpendicularity.6 C2 J* h5 k! X' L
故，兩個直桿之間的寬度公差，與直桿的垂直度公差，沒有關系。
7 M1 V$ O( \( q# B& H0 Y3 O- {, HSorry for jumping in, Evan. Feel free to modify my explanation  3 g( J" ?! h7 G4 c$ O* G
搶樓了，不好意思。EVan，有啥子意見盡管說。
9 V5 a Q9 E( h$ E0 oJohn-Paul Belanger- ~' L/ u! `5 }; @' z7 D
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; q, H. t( a( D6 f| axym (Industrial) | 8 Mar 12 17:54
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Quote (checkerhater):"Could you please clarify: Do you believe that perpendicularity tolerance zone can "freely translate" OUTSIDE of linear dimension /position tolerance zone?" 您能否解釋一下：您相信垂直度公差帶可以在線性尺寸/位置公差帶之外“自由移動”嗎？ Y0 R; a$ R+ q" O; F( c4 `# q; T
CH,
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5 {. s2 _ Q. |/ oQuick answer, yes. But of course there's more to it. 簡單說：行。不過當然不止這些。- S. O u1 i# c# O
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If we think purely in terms of the tolerance zone mechanics, which I always try to do, then the Perpendicularity zone is allowed to translate outside of the linear dimension / Position tolerance zone. 從純粹的機械理論方面來討論公差帶的話，我經常這樣做，那么垂直度公差帶，可以在線性尺寸/位置公差帶之外移動。% m9 }7 z: J! ] M- `3 E+ a+ q7 m
- E0 o" Y. U6 R& {% r& h$ KIt is true that the feature might not conform to the Position tolerance if the Perpendicularity zone had to translate partly outside of the Position zone. It definitely wouldn't conform if the Perpendicularity zone had to translate completely outside of the Position zone. But that is a different consideration. 當垂直度公差帶部分走出位置公差帶時，形體確實有可能會不符合位置公差要求。而當垂直度公差帶完全超出位置公差帶時，則肯定不符合位置公差要求了。但這是另一種考慮。
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The way I like to look at it is that the Position tolerance and the Perpendicularity tolerance are independent requirements, that can be evaluated independently of each other. This is the only way that I am able to make sense of it all. Some GD&T books state or imply that the orientation zone must float within the location zone, but to me this is an oversimplification. It is possible for part of the orientation zone to extend outside of the location zone, and still have the feature conform to both tolerances. 我對這種情況的看法是：位置公差與垂直度公差，是互相獨立的要求，可以獨立驗證。這是我唯一能理解它們的方式。某些GD&T的資料里，明確或隱含提出了方向公差帶必須處于位置公差帶之內， 但我覺得這過于簡單了。對某工件來說，有可能其方向公差帶超出位置公差帶，但形體仍然同時符合兩種公差要求。Evan Janeshewski9 n a8 G6 G7 L( H
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